Why wud u accept something as true tho if there is no opposing view. I can makeup anything and say since there is no else opposing view point, my claim is the truth. I say that outside of the observable universe its all turtles. That does not make it true just because there is no other evidence of anything else. Its a debate about facts not what ifs. This is a classic appeal to ignorance fallacy.

Yeah exactly. Thats the point. There is no record of Aisha herself saying her age was 9 at marriage. Nor is there any hadith from medina (where the marriage took place) that mentions aisha age. Only more than a generation later, in Iraq, someone who has poor memory, claimed that he has “heard” from someone else that Aisha said she is 9. So there is no reason to believe him over anyone else. Its a babble. No one knows Aishas age for sure. Historians and timeline analysis say she was 19-20. Pedophiles and Islamophobes say she was 9. People can choose to accept whatever they want. There is no good debate.

That paragraph is supposes to highlight the difference between hadith from the prophet vs haditths that are just oral collections from diff ppl. The author is saying here that the hadith does not carry the same weight as other bukhari hadiths because its not attributed to the prophet and is merely an oral claim by hisham(someone who has memory issues) that “someone said that Aisha said she was 9”

You are quoting the ending parts of the article which have nothing to do with the original argument it presents and simply is there to cleanup and establish the new status quo, and these tiny “things” whatever you call them are meaningless in the context of the greater discussion.

The symbolic part is discussed all through the article (for eg age 40 as a symbol for being wise, and for extra info age 70 in islamic world is considered the timeline for eternity(sorry if I cant explain it well, english aint my first language, but for eg u say to smone like “bro why r u so weak, r u already 70yo?”)

You not liking it does not change the fact that ages were used a lot more for symbolism back then than the actual time since the person has been born. There were no objectively correct ways of knowing smones birthdate back then except for word of mouth (if ppl cared to remember, because islam uses the lunar calendar, its much more complicated to track birthdays and date than how we do today)

Why not quote some of the earlier longer parts about timeline inconsistencies and sectarian incentives, those are up for discussion.

Well you have a point. But I would suppose that the idea is child marriage was a very common thing even upto the last century, and is still common today in less developed parts of the world. Since no one considered it an issue, no one questioned the particular hadiths either. Also there is no “centuries of scholarship” done specifically on Aishas age, it was a hadith that everyone ran with because there were no reason for ppl to doubt it. Islamic jurisprudence were about laws and ethics, not history. And whatever scholarly work has been done have pointed strongly to the idea Aisha was not 9. (Even tho ibn-kathir, in the 1300s, ran into timeline issues and has reported about how Aishas age dont match up, and the timeline that he compiled suggested aisha was in her late teens. So it is technically mot even true that no one had any issues before the west pointed it out)

I find it weird that everyone is getting so defensive here, quick to calling it apologia and bullshit. You are allowed to believe whatever you want about Islam (or christianity, or religion itself). But what I was just trying to point out in my original reply that not all muslims especially in the west and academia today, agree or accept the fact Aisha was 9. Again many still do. But it does not really help that the excuse is used by Islamophobes all around the world. Its the same as quoting the worse parts of Talmud and calling every jew a violent person. Even though most prolly never though abt it and might be conflicted if u tell this, or outright deny its supposed to be taken literally, or contextualize whatever. You can say that is all apologia, so whatever really ig, at the end people just believe whatever they want to believe, and hurling insults and accusing them of promoting child rape is unlikely to bring a change in their worldview.

Not really. Saying there is ‘no debate’ isn’t actually factually accurate. While some traditional sources mention that age, there is a massive amount of historical and academic scholarship that suggests otherwise. The claim of age 9 have been used by bad faith actors on all sides. (Some fanatics to justify child marriage, and other fanatics who think their religion/group of people are superior to muslims in particular).

Here is a decent article explaining this if u wanna engage with it in good faith. There have been various debates on it and hadith is not considered accurate always, unlike the quran. The claim she was that young may have originated from sectarian divides among early muslims for whom virginity meant being “pure”. U dont really need to particularly agree with the claim that she was not 9yo as a total fact. The Bukhari hadiths saying she is 9 is very well accepted by a vast majority of rhe fundamentalist muslim word, but not everyone. Saying there is “no debate” at all is a factually wrong statement as well. And reduces all of a particular group of people as brainwashed fanatics who support the horror of child marriage.

https://newlinesmag.com/essays/oxford-study-sheds-light-on-muhammad-underage-wife-aisha/

My dad has it and its very good… especially xiaomis software is surprisingly good smooth and fast, i much prefer it to samsungs one UI, u do need to do some tinkering. Tho by disabling ads or as they call it “recommendations” and learning to ignore their cleaners and getapps appstore

So cool to hear from lebanon… first world country mates dont really realize how much they take things for granted lol… things like 24/7 electricity and drinking tap water supply isnt rlly a thing in so many regions…

You know a state is fucked up if its alienating the biggest and most powerful terrorist state in the world

Was just browsing reddit and the amount of israeli simping is insane… just the sheer amount of money they have to spend on propaganda campaigns…. dismantle the terrorist dystopian state and the ideology its based on, one palestinian state with equal rights for all

I dont think even you would agree that china is democratic tho… not to say the west are perfect democracies, and the data u provided reflects people thoughts… the china one raises some questions…

Thanks for ur perspective, i think they r fair points, but you are giving up a lot of personal liberty and freedom of expression if you are OK with systems of something like PRC, but i suppose that can be classified as a choice However I think that the censorship that goes around such countries also makes it harder for us to know anything other than for example China might want to show us, we dont really have much idea of how internal dynamics work there and if u choose to believe personal testimonies its not pretty…

Lemmy politics i find a bit confusing and maybe i dont understand it very well but all forms of black and white communism /marxism-leninism always seemed to have lead to totalitarian states… like correct me if wrong, its fair and completely normal to say that whatever the west amd especially countries like USA an UK are bullshit and need to dismantled atleast large parts of it… but i dont understand why they jump instantly to models of china and Russia… like i said maybe i dont understand it well enough…

All good except the part “new delhi was trying”, nopes they are not, they r just spraying water on aqi sensors and beating up protestors, thats what happens when u elects fascist religious fanatics to run the capital of one of the most complex countries in the world…

When are we gonna start calling them terrorists?

Welp there is a diff between not encouraging violence and saying violence should never be used in any circumstances, you are right that major revolutions and resistance always have an element of violence in them, thats a different thing

But in a normal everyday life resorting to violence should be the last resort, its unpredictable, not just (what if your bully is stronger than u?) and undermines rule of law, I was replying in the context of the comment abt having a punch card to be used every 6 months, not in context of resistance or revolutions, sorry if the distinction was not understandable

I have actually thought quite a lot about this lol, and I kinda agree with you, violence should never be encouraged, but humans evolved to fear getting punched in the face or being eaten alive by a wild animal, not formal and polite warnings and fine haha, again not trying to make any point but just smthng i find interesting

The map of your face?🤔

Its been a few months since i read anything lmao but i read the map of salt and stars and the beauty of your face last, tried to read the other zeyn joukhadars book abt being arab and a queer but it was just too much for me😅 i am not smart enough to read that lol